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Author Topic: The Apple Tablet  (Read 9402 times)

pauljholden

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #15 on: 25 January, 2010, 11:41:23 PM »
Quote
There might be 40 million iPhones, but not everyone who goes into Tesco buys a Pot Noodle.  Let's say there's a Pot Noodle shop: that's a specific and potentially suicidal long-term business model which for the purposes of analogy could be used to highlight the specificity of the comics form if I could be bothered - but I can't.  Pinning all hope on a vague idea of digital reading - and at the minute, it is vague - is just as much eggs-in-one-basket as the comic store model of distribution, which - as you inferred* - is pretty much fucked.

True, not all 40 mil iPhone owners are comic readers - but that's the size of the potential comic reading audience - which is, I'm pretty sure, bigger than the potential comic reading audience who know where their local comic shop is.

Not sure what you feel is a 'vague idea of digital reading'? There are digital comics, they exist. There is a digital distribution medium, it also exists, and sales of digital comics are, apparently pretty damn healthy - http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2009/05/05/the-day-that-comics-on-itunes-arrived/ IDW's Star Trek tie in comic sold as many copies on the iPhone as it did in print. The only vague thing, so far, is whether this tablet will happen (it will) and whether it will be capable of displaying comics (it will) (the lingering doubt I have is will 2000AD specifically, be able to use it, and will Apple want to become the ONLY publisher on the device - ensuring all comics are published by Apple?)

Quote
Without even a uniform reader or format for digital comics,

I've been involved in the development of a couple of iPhone comic readers - you don't need a uniform format - you just need decent images and a bit of software that knows how to show them off (and, in fact, a uniform format may be the dullest thing - excluding all sorts of cool and fancy tricks...)

[/quote]it's far too early to view it as anything other than a novelty, and it won't stop being a novelty until the bigger publishers start producing a sizeable chunk of format-specific content.
[/quote]

When you're publishing digitally, what constitutes a 'bigger publisher'? IDW? BOOM? Dark Horse? (all on iPhone) or Marvel? (which you can buy through iVerse, PanelFly or Comixology's Comic reader).

The bigger publishers will find their hands tied by various departments ("iPhone? that's not publishing, that's mobile content! we can't approve that! - yeah, hang on, we have to get that approved via LA first. No, no we can't do that..."), and, in the meantime, small teams are gonna be out-innovating them all over.

I'd suggest, too, that what most of us think of as mainstream (something like x-men) will, when a Twilight iphone comic comes out, look like a piddly gnat of a comic in comparison of sales numbers.

-pj



Professah Byah

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #16 on: 26 January, 2010, 01:42:36 AM »
True, not all 40 mil iPhone owners are comic readers - but that's the size of the potential comic reading audience - which is, I'm pretty sure, bigger than the potential comic reading audience who know where their local comic shop is.

Which I'm not disputing.  Comic stores are a niche outlet that cater to a specific subset of comic art (the North American monthly), but comics and the comic form existed long before comic stores did, and the Apple tablet isn't even out yet.
Horse>cart?

Quote
Not sure what you feel is a 'vague idea of digital reading'?

Well I read comics, but even I have questions about where to start with digital, like price, subscription models, format, impact on story flow while navigating around the digital (I presume proprietary) comic story, but the potential 'new' audience of clueless masses will have even more questions that will stretch your brain to snapping point and any one of them could be a deal-breaker, no  atter how small or banal the issue may seem.
"What's a good comic?"
"Where do I buy them?"
"How much?"
"How do I read them?"
"Can I go back?"
"Why is it so long/short?"
"Is that all the story there is?"
"Why is it not like the book/film/cartoon?"

Quote
IDW's Star Trek tie in comic sold as many copies on the iPhone as it did in print.

Detective Comics sold millions when Tim Burton's Batman hit theaters - summer blockbusters shifting spin-off merchandise is nothing new, and the only thing that's changed since 1989 is the availability of comics.  The Star Trek tie-in was also a standard comic and not made specifically for digital distribution.

Quote
The only vague thing, so far, is whether this tablet will happen (it will) and whether it will be capable of displaying comics (it will) (the lingering doubt I have is will 2000AD specifically, be able to use it, and will Apple want to become the ONLY publisher on the device - ensuring all comics are published by Apple?)

Surely a re-lettered version of strips (larger fonts, I'm assuming) isn't that complicated a task for material that's already assembled digitally anyway?  As for Apple having a monopoly on digital distribution, they don't quite have that with iTunes, but there have still been legal challenges - in France, a successful one that forced them to offer files in formats other than Realplayer - and considering we've both acknowledged at some point that the problem with comics at the minute is their distribution is monopolised through one avenue, do we really want Apple to control what some are hoping is a breakout delivery method?

Quote
you don't need a uniform format - you just need decent images and a bit of software that knows how to show them off (and, in fact, a uniform format may be the dullest thing - excluding all sorts of cool and fancy tricks...)

You underestimate the human capacity for stupidity.  There are perfectly sensible and intelligent people who can't turn off a computer properly or even use a Wii controller, so ideally what you want to popularise the medium is a 'push button, read comic' model that even some of the less cunning mammals can use.  You can reinvent the wheel and add fancy tricks later, but first you actually have to give it to people in a manner which they can use.

Quote
When you're publishing digitally, what constitutes a 'bigger publisher'? IDW? BOOM? Dark Horse? (all on iPhone) or Marvel? (which you can buy through iVerse, PanelFly or Comixology's Comic reader).

Perhaps 'publisher' was a poorly chosen word on my part - I meant their recogniseable properties, like the Star Trek tie-in you mentioned which sold loads, or Spider-Man when the new movie hits, or Iron Man, Scott Pilgrim, maybe an A-Team comic?  Something that will be in people's faces will shift while it's still fresh in the memory, but not much longer after that - in this regard, the big publishers have a massive head start with their intellectual properties.

Quote
in the meantime, small teams are gonna be out-innovating them all over.

I'm not saying it's impossible for breakout hits from unknowns, but I think the idea that the big boys are twiddling their thumbs is optimism at best.  Marvel has quite a large digital arm at the moment, and it's bolstered by a huge back catalogue alongside the exclusive content and a crackdown on illegal scanners.  They're waiting to swoop on new formats, and if this one is friendly to their existing comics layouts, they won't even have to work that hard.

Quote
I'd suggest, too, that what most of us think of as mainstream (something like x-men) will, when a Twilight iphone comic comes out, look like a piddly gnat of a comic in comparison of sales numbers.

But we'll still laugh at it from our high horses, even as we read our comics about wolfosexuals with metal skelingtons and future-cops with no faces fighting skysurfing mobster gorillas.  The sad thing is, we'll probably still be absolutely right to do so, and we'll still be outnumbered.

pauljholden

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #17 on: 26 January, 2010, 07:18:39 AM »
Horse>cart?

Well, if you're going to get all sensible about idle speculation...

-pj

Pete Wells

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #18 on: 26 January, 2010, 08:03:02 AM »
Bring it on, I say. I'm really looking forward to seeing what Apple comes up with tomorrow (but at the same time I'm dreading seeing those hysterical pricks in the audience who clap like clockwork monkeys at everything that smug prick Steve Jobs says!)

Back to comics though, I've got no problem with reading comics onscreen and surely the 2000AD graphic novels we buy aren't much bigger than 10 inches? The fact that most artists these days work digitally will mean that what we see is closer to their original vision than the much duller printed page.

As far as I can see, here's the pros and cons:

Pros:

A potentially wider audience for 2000AD;
Cheaper comics;
No more disappointing Saturdays when the prog doesn't turn up;
No more trudging to a shops (lazy I know!);
Reduced distribution costs for Rebellion;
Interactivity - I adored PJ's swipe to see unlettered artwork, inks, pencils, roughs then script idea, genius. Plus, if you read something by an artist or writer you really like, click their name and all their other stuff comes up for you to buy and own instantly, perfect!
Increased opportunities for small press;
Extra zing on some artwork (compare Leigh Gallagher's online cover for prog 1643 http://leighgallagherart.blogspot.com/2009/07/making-of-my-next-2000ad-cover.html to the printed one.)
Environmental issues?

Cons:

It'll take some getting used to;
Initial expense;
It might kill my covers blog - sob!
Environmental issues?

So for me, the potential pros far outweigh the cons. I find it all very exciting and really can't wait to see what happens!
« Last Edit: 26 January, 2010, 08:04:57 AM by Pete Wells »

Jim_Campbell

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #19 on: 26 January, 2010, 08:55:44 AM »
Digression:

Quote from: Professor Byah
As for Apple having a monopoly on digital distribution, they don't quite have that with iTunes, but there have still been legal challenges - in France, a successful one that forced them to offer files in formats other than Realplayer

Umm ... no. iTunes files have never played in Realplayer -- the terms of Apple's license to distribute music required them to use a DRM layer, in this case their own FairPlay system that locked the track to iTunes on five authorized devices.

France threatened to legislate against FairPlay, to which Apple threatened to close its iTunes store in France, pointing out that one of the Big Four record labels was French-owned and the government would be better off pressuring them to drop their insistence on DRM.

The labels then attempted to break iTunes' dominance by allowing everybody except Apple to sell music as unprotected MP3. It didn't work, but it did completely undermine their own arguments about how using unprotected MP3s would destroy the music industry and eventually they had to allow Apple to use an unprotected format as well (although Apple chose AAC which is supposed to deliver higher quality audio).

Sorry for the thread drift, but there's a lot of bollocks talked about iTunes lock-in -- the Wikipedia page on the iTunes store has almost a whole 'page' of text about DRM in iTunes with what amounts to little more than a footnote stating that it's no longer used.

Cheers

Jim
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pauljholden

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #20 on: 26 January, 2010, 10:34:04 AM »
Jim makes some good points on drm on the music end, on the app end the situation is a little more subtle ...

All iPods/iPhones can and will play mp3, therefore, you're not locked into buying the audio from the apple store. iTunes did sell audio with drm which would ONLY play on the iPod/iPhone - that's no longer the case, and thank goodness.

As far as apps, and, by extension, comics/books/other media - they all have the same "fairplay" drm built in - locking you to 5 apple devices - BUT - unlike music, you can redownload applications - making the lockin both more bearable, and, for the average person, invisible.

Also: since the apps require a framework that is also only available on apple devices, apps will only run on these devices with or without drm - ie, without DRM the apple comic reader app WILL NOT work on anything else anyways (seems obvious to me, but maybe not to everyone).

I'm hoping that the Longbox project or Graphic.ly or AN OTHER digital distrubeter comes along and allows you to buy content from them that can be moved to various devices - be it apple tablet, hp tablet or some other device - if Apple become the only game in town for digital distribution of comics I think it'll be slightly worrying (as it is, they're operating as a digital gatekeeper for the device, which is a pain in the arse, but not the end of the universe...)

-pj
(ps I still think someone really clever with HTML5 should be able to build a webbased reader / store that can download and store content onto the iPhone / tablet or whatever, thereby bypassing apple altogether ...)


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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #21 on: 26 January, 2010, 12:13:35 PM »
The fact that most artists these days work digitally will mean that what we see is closer to their original vision than the much duller printed page.

This is an interesting point. Most comic art, though produced digitally seems to be imitating ink/paint etc. Nothing wrong with that. But is that the most effective or logical approach if comics are to be produced on computer if they are only to be read on screen? Take someone like Clint Langley. His work isn't trying to imitate any technique intended for print. Look at his ABC Warriors image on the 2000AD homepage. It looked good in print, perhaps a bit murky, but look how it really comes alive on screen. Art could go in a very different direction if comics were drawn on computers only to be viewed on computers/tablets/iPhones etc. If that makes sense.
« Last Edit: 26 January, 2010, 12:16:22 PM by SuperSurfer »
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Matt Timson

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #22 on: 26 January, 2010, 01:15:33 PM »
I think exciting times are ahead for comic creators- and there is plenty of room for digital and print.  Look at Freakangels as a good example: free to read online, but you can buy collected trades as well, if you want to. 

Going digital means that there will be a greater variety of product out there, for the simple fact that it will no longer cost a small fortune to produce comics that might not sell.  The only risk to publishers will be shelling out for the creators.  A lot of creators probably won't even need publishers- or if they do, they will have greater bargaining power.

My kids live in a world where a laptop is as normal as a TV when it comes to entertainment and Lottie already knows that the answer to practically any question she can think of is only a Google away.  This instant gratification means that she'll probably never buy CDs or DVDs of her own because, by the time she starts buying this stuff herself, I fully expect her to be able to download music, TV, books or movies, immediately.  Tomorrow's adults will want things now, not in a few days time, when they arrive in the post- or tomorrow, when they can get into town.

Some people are always going to want a hard copy- just like some people are always going to want vinyl- but more and more people will opt for digital content- even if it's only to get their comic fix before the floppies arrive.  As the world gets faster, that 'I want it now' mentality is only going to get more pronounced, I think.

This thread reminds me of a friend of mine, who, in the early-mid '90s, went to a business seminar with some guy who was quite high up in the CBI.  The seminar was all about a fangled new way of buying things that was being billed as 'internet shopping'.  After the seminar had ended, CBI guy turns to my friend and says, "that'll never catch on".

Seriously, anybody who doesn't see this taking hold in a big way just isn't paying attention.
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radiator

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #23 on: 26 January, 2010, 01:29:44 PM »
The key difference is that reading text or comics is a far more tactile experience than watching a film or listening to music - I simply don't enjoy reading comics on a screen - it's a very different proposition.

I'm sure the future is digital, but this Apple tablet (for me at least) isn't it. Maybe in years to come they will come up with a reader that mimics the feel, weight and even smell of paper, is waterproof, shockproof and inexpensive. Maybe then I'll switch over.

To me, having a wide selection of music on the go has always made sense, but I've never been on the tube and thought 'I really wish I had all my comics with me'. But perhaps that's just me - I pretty much only ever read comics last thing at night - comics demand a lot from the reader's imagination, and it's the only time of day when I'm suitably free of distractions to enjoy them.

Professah Byah

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #24 on: 26 January, 2010, 01:38:34 PM »
Nobody's saying it won't find a foothold, I'm just not convinced that comics as they are traditionally presented and comics as they can be comfortably read on the reader will equate to an automatic audience overlap.  Scans of floppies are available on the day of release for nowt if you know where to look, but a lot of people don't take that option, not because they have a moral objection to theft, but because they don't like reading digitally: it's free, they already read comics, they want to read this one, but they're still not interested, just as plenty who know how to use torrents and have access to illegal copies of films they're desperate to see will wait for the cinema release.
As you say, it'll be those who grow up with it as standard who comprise the vast majority of the digital-reader audience - the existing audience will taker a while to come around.

At the end of the day, it's down to marketing and Apple certainly know their market.  I just wonder what they'll do so differently from existing multimedia platforms like PSP that already have comics available to buy and read.

Dandontdare

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #25 on: 26 January, 2010, 01:46:16 PM »
This thread reminds me of a friend of mine, who, in the early-mid '90s, went to a business seminar with some guy who was quite high up in the CBI.  The seminar was all about a fangled new way of buying things that was being billed as 'internet shopping'.  After the seminar had ended, CBI guy turns to my friend and says, "that'll never catch on".

I remember saying the same thing about text messages (who'll type fiddly messages on a phone keypad when you can just press one button and speak to them?)and bottled water ("nobody in this country is going to be daft enough to actually pay for something that comes out of the tap for free")!

Some people are always going to want a hard copy
And I'm one of those luddites. I want my pages BIG and on paper. I want my collection stacked up or proudly shelved. I want to be able to lie on  my back, swing in a hammock, soak in the bath or sit on the bus reading a comic, without carting hardware around with me. I know, I know, I'll just have to get used to it, but it won't stop me moaning and grouching into my dotage: "I remember when we had PROPER comics...."  :D

Matt Timson

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #26 on: 26 January, 2010, 01:46:25 PM »
The key difference is that reading text or comics is a far more tactile experience than watching a film or listening to music

It is for you, but it probably won't be for your kids- and that's where the future market is.  I imagine that there was a time (probably for our parents- or certainly our grandparents) when the thought of watching a film anywhere other than at the cinema would be met with the same skepticism.  Movies on your TV? What about the popcorn?  What about the journey into town?  The plush seats?  The ushers?  Who will bring me snacks during my film?!?  

You and I accept watching films on TV and Laptops because it's what we know- why should comics or magazines be any different?  Kids already get most of their news from the internet- how many of them do you think ever buy a paper?  If it's normal for them to read digital comics, will they care about the tactile experience of flicking through a real comic?
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Matt Timson

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #27 on: 26 January, 2010, 01:47:51 PM »
And just to clarify- I like proper comics- it's just that I can see huge potential with digital.
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radiator

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #28 on: 26 January, 2010, 01:58:51 PM »
Quote
It is for you, but it probably won't be for your kids- and that's where the future market is.

But that isn't the discussion we're having here - in my post I agree that the future is digital, but I don't think it will happen, as PJ suggests, 'overnight', and I don't think this particular device will be the one to do it.

uncle fester

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Re: The Apple Tablet
« Reply #29 on: 26 January, 2010, 02:01:26 PM »
This thread reminds me of a friend of mine, who, in the early-mid '90s, went to a business seminar with some guy who was quite high up in the CBI.  The seminar was all about a fangled new way of buying things that was being billed as 'internet shopping'.  After the seminar had ended, CBI guy turns to my friend and says, "that'll never catch on".

I remember saying the same thing about text messages (who'll type fiddly messages on a phone keypad when you can just press one button and speak to them?)and bottled water ("nobody in this country is going to be daft enough to actually pay for something that comes out of the tap for free")!


I once went for an interview as a games designer and the interviewer told me in no uncertain terms that the internet was "a passing fad"

On the subject, I think it's really exciting that you potentially could see the comics we read morphing into something much more interactive. Having downloaded a few free iTunes ones on my phone (out of sheer curiosity) I can see that it would be an altogether different way of reading, but that in itself is no reason for it not to work, and work well.

The only thing I can't figure out is how you would answer phone calls on the Tablet without looking a bit silly...